Beta meta

[aleathiel]

There's a post here (re original fiction, but I think it applies to fanfic too) about beta readers and what you look for when someone is betaing.

This is something I was thinking about the other day, when betaing for abbyleaf101 (and have also raised with fortassetu, back a long time ago).

It made me want to ask what your thoughts are? Especially those of you for whom I have/do beta, or vice versa.

angiepen, for example, I know you don't really like betas at all as a process. Would you care to comment on that?

Personally I think what I want from a beta depends on how emotionally invested I am in a fic. Fics I consider unimportant I just want to iron out errors and often I don't have them betad at all. Fics I care about, fics I want to be good, I would love a beta to discuss and rip apart and make me make them the best I possibly can.

And yet, it's hard for me to admit that. Because in my heart of hearts I think all things I write should be the latter, not the former. But I don't have the energy to pour that much effort and emotion into everything I write. Some of them are just for fun.

So, I guess I wonder what you think about that, too.

Comments

[ineptshieldmaid.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I often don't have fic beta'd, even when I should. I edit spelling mistakes out of the post after the fact if necessary.

When I DO have betas, depends on the story and the person. kayloulee is my go-to-girl for essays I need ironed out, and for grammar and spelling and nitpicking. phrasemuffin, who only ever edits Bare fic, is best at what I need most in that fandom: characterisation. We wrangle back and forth about my characterisation of various characters, but especially Jason.

Since I hit fandom, I've been working much more closely with other writers than ever before: Trojie and Lucy know nearly as much about my characters as I do. I've found that I want ongoing betas- my Yuletide fic was written in snippets and dished up to Trojie and Kayloulee piece by piece before I stuck it all together. Both Trojie and Lucy have been grilled about my ongoing Caspian/Edmund series: I can't figure out where it should go, and I need people to hash it over with me. That's what my Suspian is needing, but in the absence of Trojie, it's coming together on its own.

This experience of working really closely, of wanting to share characters and stories with other people and have other people push the boat one way or the other is really novel for me. I nearly died of shock the day Trojie and I wrote something TOGETHER, and it was good, and an enjoyable experience. I never, ever thought you'd catch me co-writing anything.

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I didn't apply this to co-writing since I really have no experience with it. But I've signed up for roundmerlin just for the experience and have been tentatively plotting a grand project with thisissirius which might involve a number of writers.

[ineptshieldmaid.livejournal.com]

The co-writing tumbled out naturally: the way the online relationship between Trojie and I works is that we read each other's fics, are both deeply invested in each others' series and are batting snippets back and forth for... informal feedback, I guess, and/or to disconcert the other by dropping porn into the chat window. Trojie's formal beta and cowriter is tea_fiend, so I tend to see the early bits when Trojie writes them, and then nothing for ages, and then the last-draft-but one, once both of them have put their bits in.

Meanwhile, we mod edmund_caspian, we're awake in the same time zones, reading the same fics... and somehow after an hour or so we had a whole comedy piece written in the chat window.

Roundmerlin looks like FUN. I am eagerly awaiting its products :D.

[nurseowens.livejournal.com]

Fics I care about, fics I want to be good, I would love a beta to discuss and rip apart and make me make them the best I possibly can.

I'm with you on this one. Having had the experience of a professional editor doing this to my novel, which I thought was pretty damn near perfect already and sending it back to me with more red than black remaining, was such an eye-opener and such an amazing learning experience, I wish I could do it like that every single time. She made it so much better than I ever thought it could be.
Of course I realise that a beta is nothing like that, and frankly, I don't always have the time or the energy to give my writing this treatment, but I still think a beta is very valuable and everyone who's ever helped me out by doing a thorough beta job, has helped me make a fic better.
An extra pair of eyes is always good and I don't understand people who say they don't feel their fics need beta'ing.
I do co-author quite a bit and there it's different, since it's already two people looking at it all the time and you help each other out.
Not that co-authored fics wouldn't benefit from a 'third eye' ;-)

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I didn't know you'd written a "proper" novel! How exciting, what's it about?

And yes, betaing is different, but personally I think that having elements like that are really helpful. I appreciate that it puts more strain on the beta and it's asking for more than just checking the spelling etc, and is therefore a bigger request. I sort of think its something that you can only get from someone after you've spent a time reading each other's stuff and doing more minor betaing and building up a rapport. But that might be just my opinion :)

I have very little experience with co-authouring, like I wrote above. I don't know how I feel about it. I think it would be fun to try, but it's a big time commitment to someone else and I'd feel guilty if something got in the way.

[nurseowens.livejournal.com]

Co-authoring isn't easy and it requires a lot of mutual trust and the possibility to check your ego at the door. You can only do that if you have a certain rapport with them and that takes time.

Yes, my novel *coughs*
Diplomacy was actually published as original fiction by Dreamspinner Press

[sunawareness.livejournal.com]

I've never had anything beta'd and am often wondering if I should... but when ever I finish a fic or a chapter I always just want to put it out there already- but mostly because I write fanfic out of compulsion (a nervous tic almost) and just want to move on to the next idea I have (comes from being a gemini I think). Personally I like LJ and fanfic because its just people telling stories that occur to them rather than being something carefully polished (but then I love the random and the weird and have always enjoyed things that try something different even if it doesn't always work out). Stories where people just encourage creativity rather than creating something to be published and sold. Same reason I'm determined to bring oral storytelling back- LJ's great for interaction rather than creating a product.

None of which should stop me from getting a beta but does always make me want to put things out there quickly.

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

There is definitely a side to that in fanfic. You've made me feel a bit better about my comment in the post about 'fast' fics rather than 'thorough' fics. I guess a balance of both is what makes me happiest.

[fortassetu.livejournal.com]

Betas... hmm, well, I know when I beta it's just me looking over things to see of they make sense, and I don't really change the story or anything. But I know what you mean about the really good fics; alichay helped me so much with my epic.

And half the time I just send her my stuff, she reads it, we flail a bit and not much betaing goes on. So I know what you mean there.

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

Right, and that's the kind of experience and relationship I've had with most of my betas. And it's great. Especially because it means that there isn't often a lot of work I need to do to something after it's been betad and before I post it.

That said, there is something very satisfying about producing a piece of work that is really good because you've worked really hard on re-writing it and re-organising it. It's something I do a lot more with original fiction, and have only applied in a few places to fic. But where I have I've always been really pleased with the result. And it's pleased for myself with the product rather than pleased that people had a positive response (which I love too, but which is different). In fact, I have no idea how many people commented on the fic I was talking about in the post, but that almost doesn't matter to me.

[fortassetu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I love it when she just says "...*dies* that was amazing." That makes me so so happy.

I know what you mean about that too. The epic came a long way from where it started, even though I sometimes think I should re-rewrite it, lol, and which fic is this, btw?

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

*g* It's great if people enjoy your work!

You can always re-write it another time, if you want to. You are the only person who can decide if it should be done or not.

The fic I was referring to is The Work of Heaven (which is Kingdom of Heaven fanfic) and the beta was Persephone, who isn't on LJ any more :(

[fortassetu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't really want to look at the epic right now. It caused me more harm that good, I think, and by the end I was just so TIRED of it.

Ah, right, I haven't seen the film so I'll bookmark it and come back to it sometime ♥

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, there's no need to. It's great. It's only if you want to that you should.

That's fine. There's no obligation for you to read everything I've written! :P

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Hi, this is the first time I've commented on a post of yours that was not a story, but I was actually taking a break from beta'ing for a friend when I hit refresh on my friends page and you post appeared.
kitty_poker1 is the grand dame of beta'ing in the BtVS fandom and she wrote an essay on the subject for the community Shared Wisdom, if you are interested.

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

Hi. It's nice to have you comment :)

I will have a look at that essay :)

[mariamme.livejournal.com]

I'm in agreement. *g*

When I send something to beta, I definitely don't want a mild "yeah, that's great." I mean, obviously I think it's good, or I wouldn't even let anyone else see it. What I want in a beta is for them to tell me what doesn't work, be it grammar or plot or characterization (about which I might not take every suggestion, but I would consider it very, very seriously). Of course, I also like to hear what I've done right--even just an occasional "LOL" or "awesome sentence." But only if the beta feels that way.

If it's a fic I'm really worried about and/or invested in, I tend to ask for several types of betas. I finished a fic just the other day that was very different than my usual style. Last night I sent it to a friend who's opinion I trusted and she gave me a very quick and dirty read through with her opinions. Based on that feedback, I'm going to make some changes. Once that's done, I'll have it betaed again, much more strictly. And then I'll probably send it back to the original person for a final read through.

I do agree that it depends on the fic, too. If it's a shorter fun piece I've dashed off in an evening, I'll probably post it and be willing to take corrections in the comments about grammar (which I know some writers are not willing to do). But if it's a longer fic that I've been working on for days, I'll have it betaed.

When I beta it's a bit different. I think that, honestly, there are very few writers who WANT their fic torn apart. If someone asks me to be critical, I will. But I also don't want to destroy a new writer's enthusiasm (I sometimes beta for people who I don't know well). So I'm certainly more careful with other people's writing than I like my betas to be with my own, unless it's someone I know well or they've asked me to be brutally honest. I'm always honest, because I think that's required in a beta / writer relationship, but I'm sometimes kinder, if that makes sense?

And I usually always offer to do a second and third beta, if the writer wants it. Mainly because that's what I like in my own fics, and as a writer I can understand how (especially if there are substantial corrections like "I'm not sure what this scene's purpose is here") someone would want an opinion on the changes they made. But on that same token, I'm never bothered if someone declines a second beta. If I'm happy with the fic and there were only minor corrections, I probably wouldn't ask for one either. For me, a good writer / beta relationship on both sides is a process.

Cowriting is another process entirely, imho. I see how it overlaps for some people and I think that's a totally legitimate way to look at it. For me, it's always been an entirely different process. I tend to cowrite with people I know and whose writing skills I admire. It's a definite give and take and I usually am careful to check my pride at the door, because it does involve compromise. Sometimes a lot of it. *g* (Incidentally, if I cowrite a fic, it's always sent to a beta after it's done. I think that a cowriter would catch a lot of mistakes and I of hers, but imho it still needs a third set of eyes.)

Hahaha. Long comment is long. Apparently I have strong feelings on the subject, who knew?

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

Wow, I think I might be in love with you!

My only small disagreement is I mean, obviously I think it's good, or I wouldn't even let anyone else see it.
Sometimes I send something to a beta that I think isn't working to see what their opinion is. Sometimes they can see more clearly where I've goen wrong. But generally, yes, "this is great" is comment feedback, not beta feedback.


Cowriting is another process entirely, imho.
Yeah, I figured it probably was. Haven't ever really done it, so I don't know what my opinions are of it.

[mariamme.livejournal.com]

*grin* And see? THIS is why I like a beta! Because I can see I've not worded things as clearly as I should.

I have, and will often, send things to people I don't think are working. But in my mind, that's not really a beta. It's a second set of eyes, or a quick reading, or broader feedback. From a beta, I expect almost a line by line reading and correction (if it needs it) and if I think there's gaping holes in the plot or larger issues with a story, I don't see a point in having that kind of grammar correction (yet). By the time I send something to beta, I'm generally confident about it. Of course, I probably put my own thoughts at the end, such as "How does this POV work?" and "How did transition X go?" I'm not entirely confident, but I won't send a fic for a full beta if I'm not at least marginally pleased with how it turned out.

Of course, I realize that other people might have different opinions and WANT a line by line beta of a fic in that case. Which I think is totally legitimate. I just described what I like to do. YMMV. *g*

Honestly, I love cowriting. It's one of my absolute favorite things about fandom. To me, it seems like it's so much easier and the writing goes so much faster than when I write on my own (usually). I love it. I'm glad you're considering giving it a try. *g*

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

*g* Ahh, yes. I guess I don't differentiate between the 'help me while I'm struggling writing' something beta and the 'this is nearly done help me kick it into touch' beta. Probably because they are usually the same person for me. Hehe, I have a trail of them from fandom to fandom.

I like the idea of having several different people look at things at different times (although I've only done it a few times). With the long fic I'm attempting to write (and it's fighting back!) at the moment I have one volunteer beta (a good friend of mine) who I'm keeping out of it until I've done a full, reasonably okay draft. But I know I'm going to be begging for help with it from other people before that (soon, at this rate!).

I'm starting to get very interested in the idea of co-writing. I might have to hold out until I have more control over my time, and until I've found the right person to co-write with, but I think it could be both a lot of fun and a great learning experience for me.

[mariamme.livejournal.com]

I like having different people look over my fics too. *g* And I think your idea about your epic fic is a good one--I've never written anything like that on my own (co-writing, yes) but I'd imagine I'd want the same. I'd hate to get the whole thing done and then find out a critical scene doesn't work for anyone but me. I'd rather have it done in chunks (incidentally, I'm betaing a long fic that way right now and it seems to work for the writer and all her betas).

I'm looking forward to seeing yours!

PS. Also, I am deeply ashamed by the grammatical errors in my first comment. I promise I normally catch such things, I was just so excited about getting my thoughts out! Haha.

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

Heh, the problem with my epic fic at the moment is that I have too many ideas to actually make any progress with the writing, if that makes any sense? I have too many threads I want to start and too many themes I want to intergrate and I end up taking hours to write 200 words and then they still don't actually manage to do any of those things. It's very frustrating, especially since as soon as I sit down to write something else I write 3000 words in an evening no sweat.

I'm glad to hear that you think it's worked for other people. I don't see how else to make it work at all, to be honest.

Oh, as am I with the spelling errors. I don't read back over comments nearly carefully enough!

[mariamme.livejournal.com]

I have too many ideas to actually make any progress with the writing, if that makes any sense?

*groans* Oh, my god. Does it ever. I'm actually having that problem with my reel_merlin fic, to the point that I'm not even really able to start, because I keep thinking, "Well, it could go this way! Or this way! Or how about this!" ARGH.

I find the sentiment in my icon wholly appropriate to the feelings I'm trying to express in this comment. *grins* A little frustrated? Me? Nooooo.

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

Oooh, what are you doing for reel_merlin? I was going to sign up (SO MANY fantastic ideas looking at the list!) but I knew that if I did I'd never get any of the other things I'm working on done.

it's a very appropriate icon

[mariamme.livejournal.com]

Princess Diaries. *giggle* I couldn't resist. But I was wondering if I should do PD1 or PD2 or both and which characters should fit where and how closely I should follow the script andandandand (as you can see, the process is currently, uhm, having some difficulties)...

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

Hee! That sounds like so much fun! It's been a long time since I've seen either (although I now have a strange urge to... one of my girlier friends must have a copy...). And yes, I can see how it would be a difficulty. I'd be tangling myself in how closely to follow the plot, or which bits I thought mapped the best and... yeah, it's probably a good thing I didn't sign up for reel_merlin (not to mention the fact that another deadline would probably kill me at this point).

I can't wait to see the fic :) They're due the end of Feb, is that right?

[mariamme.livejournal.com]

I think it will be fun! If I can just figure out WHERE to slot all of them in, that is. That's my main problem, I think, because I just see so many possibilities. *grin*

Yeah, they're due the 22nd IIRC. I know that's a lot of time, logically, especially when I can write 4,000 words a day. But I'm kind of starting to panic a bit. *giggle*

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

And clearly I meant < small > not < i >. Me, need a beta? Never

[mariamme.livejournal.com]

*cracks up* <33333

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

I have a lot of thoughts about the beta process, both generally and personally.

Personally is the easiest. As a writer, I don't do the beta thing, ever. I never got into the habit as a baby writer; when I first started posting my fiction on the internet, the term "beta reader" hadn't been invented yet. Some people had friends look over their stuff, but it was incredibly informal and it wasn't an assumed standard in fanfic the way it is now. I only got heavily into fanfic much later (around '03 or so -- about fifteen years later) and discovered that everyone had "Betaed by:" lines in their headers. [Heck, I discovered that everyone had headers -- that wasn't standard either, back when.]

Most of the people I hung out with in the old days were either published writers or working on being published. The number one goal was to improve your own skills, to learn to get your stories in shape to be sent to an editor. Workshopping was popular, and for some people that was a sort of intense, group-beta process. I enjoyed workshopping for a while, but for me it was about the process rather than the product. I didn't workshop so much to make a particular story shine, but rather to polish my skills more generally. And for that purpose, really, I got a lot more out of critiquing other people's stories than I got out of other people critiquing mine. I'd get a couple of critiques in my chapter and they'd be a paragraph or three. I'd critique someone else and it'd be two or three thousand words.

When I critique (and even when I'm "betaing," that's how I think of it) I'm brutally thorough. I do a line-by-line first, calling out anything I think is wrong or awkward or just makes me squint, explaining what's wrong, why it's wrong, and giving a few suggestions on how to fix it. What makes this a great learning experience for me was that I had and have a horror of saying, "This is wrong," and being mistaken. O_O So I had a couple of style guides and I read multiple bulletin boards about writing and mechanics, and looked things up and did everything I could to make sure I knew that this bit here really was wrong, and that I could explain in so many words why it was wrong, when initially I might've just pinged on it as a gut-instinct type of reaction. Being afraid of making a fool of yourself in front of a large group of peers makes one a wonderful researcher. [wry smile]

I give more than one suggestion (unless it was something straightforward like a spelling error or whatever) to emphasize that I'm not trying to tell someone how to rewrite their story. [Do it like this, exactly!] Giving several possible fixes shows instead the sort of thing I mean. It's more a way of explaining my thinking by example, so the writer knows where I'm coming from and what assumptions I'm making about what she meant, which gives her a better idea of how to fix it, and helps her get a feel for the range of "right ways" rather than giving the impression that there's only one way to do something, which is rarely true with writing.

Also, this way, even if I'm wrong in my assumptions about what she meant or wanted, and therefore all my suggestions are inappropriate, the writer gets a clear idea of how the story miscommunicated and can fix that, which is the actual problem.

[Continued on Second Rock...]

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

[...Continued from First Rock]

I also give feedback on where I smiled or laughed, where I was confused and about what, what assumptions I made at various points, what bits I thought were red herrings, where I was startled or wanted to cry, where I wanted to smack one character or hug another, etc. General reactions to the story aren't things to fix, per se, but rather let the writer compare what I'm getting with how she wanted the reader to get -- make sure that what I'm catching is what she's pitching.

Then at the end, I give more general comments -- anything which wasn't appropriate for zeroing in on a certain word or line, but rather overall trends and weaknesses and impressions.

Which is probably what most betas do, I don't know. Except (to be rudely frank) far too many betas do a lousy job of it. I don't know how many times I've seen a writer in comments gushing thanks all over her beta (or her two or even three betas) and then found the story itself to be absolutely riddled with errors. What exactly did all those betas do?

Too often, if you pay attention to who's betaing whom, you see a closed little group of writers who are just pooling their ignorance. Mary knows something is true because Jane and Sue and Alice all agree. My guess is that Alice said it was true when they first got together, it sounded reasonable so they all nodded, and now all four of them make that error over and over. This isn't just a beta problem, of course; small workshopping groups have the same issue.

My first good workshop was online. It had about thirty or so writers in it, about a quarter to a third of them published, and the rest of us working on it. The large group, and the wide range of experience, meant that it was unlikely a real stinker of an error would last for long in the group; chances are someone would know what's what. And again, everyone there was actively trying to learn and grow and improve as a writer.

That's often not the case at all in fanfic land. There are a lot of awesome writers, true, but there are also plenty who are mediocre at best, and who have said in public that they don't care, don't want to bother learning to be any better, that they're not "really" writers (despite posting stories in public on a regular basis) and that because it's "just for fun" it therefore doesn't matter whether they suck. Personally, I don't have fun doing things I suck at, but maybe that's just me.

But there are exchanges and fest, and I've even seen the occasional archive or community, where Thou Shalt Have a "Betaed By:" Line In Thy Header. And in the community at large, it's just sort of assumed that of course a writer will have their work betaed before they post, to the point where those who don't often feel guilty, or think they have to justify their decision, like it's something shameful and requires an excuse. The result, so far as I can see, is that everyone has a beta and most of them are mediocre at best.

Yes, there are some stars in the beta world, just as there are really excellent writers. But looking at the mass results, from a craftsmanship angle, I tend to be generally unimpressed. Stories which have had two or three or four sets of eyes go over them should be a lot cleaner than they often are.

[Continued on Third Rock...]

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

[...Continued from Second Rock]

The emphasis, though, is on having "a" beta. There's nothing in the rules about the quality of that beta, and it shows. And a lot of writers don't care. More than once I've pointed out a typo or something in comments, or seen someone else point out an error, and the writer has responded, "Oh, my beta missed that. [shrug]" No, you missed that. You're the writer, and your name is up there on the "Author:" line. But some people think having a beta means that they're completely free of responsibility for the shape their story's in. I don't get that, and I'm just as happy not to get it.

But unless your beta is significantly better than you are at whatever areas where you're weak, the best you can hope for is that they'll catch the occasional typo or silly oops, or notice large-scale plot holes and the like. To make serious progress as a writer, you need critiques from people whose craftsmanship is much better than yours. Two newbies or mid-level writers helping each other out is better than nothing, and will keep you from posting the "OMG how did I miss that?!?!" type mistakes, but you're not going to learn very much, or very quickly, because the person you're learning from doesn't know much more than you do.

The idea behind the "Every writer should have a beta" meme which is so strong in fanfic fandom is that it'll improve the quality of what's being posted. In actuality, reading the mass of stories nowadays, mostly betaed, the average quality isn't any better than it was back in the eighties, when people took complete responsibility for their own stories. We went over them obsessively before posting, knowing that the buck stopped right here and any errors would be solely and completely our own responsibility.

And that's my own POV. I don't use a beta, so it's all on me. I know for a fact that there won't be any second set of eyes to catch glitches and typos and continuity oopses. My name is the only one in the header and the buck stops with me, so I do my damndest to make sure that a story or chapter is as good as I can make it before I post, because I'm the only person standing on that stage. It makes me much more careful. Is it perfect? Nope. I do miss things occasionally. But I have to say in all honesty that my unbetaed stories are cleaner than most people's betaed stories. So I think my method serves me pretty well.

Angie

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

I completely take your point (and even agree with a lot of it). Certainly it annoys the hell out of me when writers think that having a second person glance over their fic makes it somehow more acceptable to post things with mistakes in it.

As far as I'm concerned, a beta is there to let me talk ideas through, to give me their general impressions of what works and what doesn't and whether I'm creating the effect I'm aiming for (which sounds like what you were talking about with regards to critiquing). Obviously I hope that if I've made a silly error they will point it out to me, because it's easier to see these things in someone else's work than in your own (it's the kind of thing my friends do looking over essays before submission too, when you've read something so many times that you read what you think it says, not what it actually says). I don't think a beta is about abdicating responsibility, but about having someone to push you to make things better and to prove the level of work you are creating. Yes, of course, you learn this best from someone who is better than you (or from someone who is better at certain things than you) - the beta I mentioned in the post was just this. You also learn it from reading the work of people who are better than you and seeing how they do things (and I love doing this!)

Which is probably what most betas do, I don't know.
No. It's what the best betas do.

I guess I feel that the fact that there are people who don't have the same attitudes to betaing as I do (ie people who think it is a failsafe, and post anyway) doesn't mean that I shouldn't get out of the experience what I can, and learn from people who are willing to discuss their opinions with me. Does that make sense?

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

Sure, it makes perfect sense. [nod]

I guess when it comes down to it, it's not the beta concept I have misgivings about, but rather the way far too many people implement it, which is badly. If you have a good beta who knows their stuff and will put in the time and effort required to do a great job, who'll really hammer on you and bleed all over your manuscript, and if you see having your work betaed as an active learning experience -- just another way of working on improving your writing skills -- rather than an excuse to shuck responsibility, or just another box to check off as quickly and painlessly as possible so the mods will let you submit your fest fic, then yeah, it can be a very valuable process. What frustrates me is how few people approach it that way, so the practice of getting betaed results in little or no improvement in anyone's writing, or in fanfic in general. And it might even restrict that improvement, if people are using being betaed as an excuse not to work or learn.

And yes, reading analytically is another excellent tool. [nodnod] Whether you're reading good stuff to see how to do it right, or bad stuff to figure out what went wrong and how you'd fix it, it's all active learning.

Angie

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

TBH I suspect that the people who use it as a tick in a box are the people who have no inclination towards improving their writing anyway. So whether they have their fics betad or not probably makes no difference at all the the quality of what's posted. They abdicate responsibility when they do have something betad, but they probably wouldn't put the care into improving it for themselves if they didn't.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

Quite possible. [nod] Although I'd like to think that without that safety net (as they see it), at least a few of them would realize that it's all on them and, like, read it over once. Or something. [wry smile] I'm sure I'm largely projecting, though.

Angie

[jassyskie.livejournal.com]

I agree with a whole lot of what Angie said. I don't use a beta; what I occasionally use is a first reader.

When I do have someone read my stuff as a first reader, I don't want line by line edits. I want storytelling feedback. I want to know if the plot worked, if the pacing is right for the type of story it is, if I forgot to tie up any loose threads, if the characters are believable, or if the story's flat for some reason, why?

Why don't I want line by line edits? Because to me, "polishing" a story takes voice out of it. There's always a more grammatically correct way to say something, different word choices I could have made, but that might not be how my POV character would say it. The only line edit type things I want to hear about are typos, since an extra set of eyes is great for picking up the times my brain and fingers weren't exactly on the same page.

The last time I was in a challenge community and the rules said stories had to be beta'd, I had to go find a beta, but in reality, she was a first reader. She got to read all my stories early; I got to put her name in the story headers to comply with the rules.

I write original fic the same way. I finish the story, let it sit for a day (if I'm not pushing a deadline; I've been known to finish a story, do a quick read-through, and email it out the same day to meet a deadline), read it for typos or tense-shift errors, and just send it out. When I get first-reader comments on longer stuff, it doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to fix that story (chances are it's already in the mail), but the feedback helps me learn stuff for the next story. Writing is all a learning process anyway, and nothing is ever perfect. It's an exercise in frustration for me to try to make something perfect.

What is really important to me is that when I do have my stories critiqued at workshop, I'm getting feedback from writers who are much better than I am, skill wise. That's how I learn, how I improve my own skills.

That's not how I think every fanfic writer should approach betas. I had a couple of wonderful betas when I first started writing Viggorli who I'll always be grateful to for helping some of my early stories end up a lot stronger than my initial draft. That was a lot of workshops and a whole hell of a lot of words ago, and these days my process has changed. I hope that doesn't sound egotistical because lord knows I don't think my stuff is ever perfect; it's just how I work.

[aleathiel.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. I'm loving hearing everyone's differing opinions on this.

I think I still learn a lot from comments on my story, not specifically about sentence structure or line-level things (and really I consider that something that the beta has advice on and you can take it or leave it depending on how you think it works) but about overall pacing and whether I've changed a character completely half way through, and that sort of thing. I guess that's the kind of thing you are talking about with a first reader. I wonder whether, when I'm more confident, I will feel like I need this advice less?

[lennongirl.livejournal.com]

I use a beta reader for the simply reason that I'm no English native speaker and even though I studied the language and lived in England for some time, I just feel better having some native speaker looking over it for typos, weird phrases and such. I don't use betas when I write in German, however.